Varför publicerar Ridsport en 5 år gammal intervju?

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Sv: Varför publicerar Ridsport en 5 år gammal intervju?

Jag tror faktiskt snarare att det skulle vara den minskade cortisolhalten (som det kan bli vid långvarig stress) som i så fall kan leda till att man känner av reumatism. Cortisol är ju kroppens eget cortison, dvs hjälper till vid ledinflammationer, muskelbesvär osv. Det är ju det som är en av biverkningarna med cortison, att kroppen slutar tillverka cortisol, pga att det är så höga halter av cortison i kroppen hela tiden. Så genom att höja halten av dessa ämnen på konstgjord väg minskar kroppens egen tillverkning.
 
Sv: Varför publicerar Ridsport en 5 år gammal intervju?

Jag får inte fram texten, bara en tom fil. Kanske min dator som är seg?
 
Sv: Varför publicerar Ridsport en 5 år gammal intervju?

Så vitt jag har förstått så kan kortisolnivån trigga igång reumatiska åkommor. Eftersom jag "lider" (inom citationstecken, då jag inte alls lider) av en reumatisk åkomma själv vet jag att långvarig stress gör smärtupplevelsen starkare, men det kan jag tänka mig även beror på serotoninnivån och på dopaminsänkningen, bland annat. Det är ju en komplex organism vi har ;-). Jag har letat rätt mycket information om just detta då jag gillar att hålla mig ovanpå saker ;-)

Tessan
 
Sv: Varför publicerar Ridsport en 5 år gammal intervju?

Många säger samma sak. Den är extremt lång, så jag bör inte klistra in här, men jag kan ta valda delar. Gerd Heuschmanns kommentar är obetalbar!

5. Gerd Heuschmann (Speaker):
Returning back home from Lausanne, I was more then surprised to read the FEI-statement on
horsesport.org! It felt to me a little bit, like I had not been part of that workshop at all.
I believed, we all were in good favour and realized that we have to work more intensively and
scientifically in the near future on the effects of “over-flexing” of horses in training. In your
announcement, it sounds like over-flexing or hyperflexing is fine, if done by experienced riders
over a certain time frame. That is at least, how people understand this statement. Needless to say,
that the responses I got from many countries are very negative. Your announcement did not point
out at all, that we are rejecting very much any aggressive and hard way of that method. That
would have been in my opinion a very important fact to say. The statement sounds like a general
agreement. That is not the case.
The “scientific work” of the Swiss, Dutch and Swedish group in my opinion is a big problem. I am
not doubting their measurements and those results, but I think their interpretation is wrong and
will lead us to very dangerous conclusions, which will effect the welfare and soundness of many
horses in the long run. During the meeting already, I could not understand the fact that the horses
back is supposed to have the best mobility in position 4. It took me a few days of thinking,
researching and realizing all facts:
In a loose, supple horse the back has to a certain degree its own dynamic swing which does not go
with the withers 100 %. If you make artificial tension on the neck ligament then the back ligament
will get tense as well and the back has to follow the ups and downs of the withers. This does
make a higher amplitude, but not a better mobility of the back. This cannot be the goal of correct
training of the horse. Therefore, I believe, that this study presented in Lausanne is a dangerous
and possibly misleading paper.
In my opinion it is very dangerous to relate to this study, to make up an official FEI-opinion. I
believe that the FEI should be very careful with a final statement like this. Hundreds of years of
experience cannot be so wrong!

Tessan
 
Sv: Varför publicerar Ridsport en 5 år gammal intervju?

Tack för att du klippte in det! Jag är inte riktigt säker på vad jag ska tycka om forskningen. Är inte helt insatt i hur de har gjort undersökningarna, så det är svårt att ha en åsikt. Stämmer det verkligen att de använt olika hästar när de har "rollkurat" och när de har ridit "klassiskt"? Man skulle ju behöva läsa hela rapporterna/artiklarna för att kunna bilda sig en uppfattning.
 
Sv: Varför publicerar Ridsport en 5 år gammal intervju?

Frank Ödberg, Belgien:

It would be an error to focus only on the technique of Rollkur. It must be seen within a more general
philosophy of schooling that is probably deleterious to the horse’s welfare. The key questions are:
1. Does Rollkur always decrease welfare, whichever way it is carried out? (i.e. is Rollkur an inherent
part of a schooling philosophy that uses coercion as a rule? Or can it be applied in an animalfriendly
way as a gymnastic exercise, provided knowledgeable people perform it?).
2. If Rollkur does not decrease welfare in the latter case, is its purpose useful, a redundant practice, or
counter-productive in equestrianism?

This presentation starts with some general comments on horse welfare followed by a short historical survey
of the evolution of riding principles which ends with a criticism of the predominant way of schooling
nowadays. Rollkur is situated within that context. Suggestions about the way forward and the role of
science close the arguments.


An underestimated welfare problem

Although the welfare of animals used for sport has long been recognised as part of applied ethology
(Ödberg, 1976), scientists have focused their interest on farm animals. Some of them, as well as some
animal protection societies, did express concern about the fate of horses (Ewbank, 1985; Gerber, 1984;
Hopes, 1984; Lawrence, 1996; Ödberg, 1987). Control of welfare at the physical level was improved by the
FEI (Atock and Williams, 1995). The problem is that if the interpretation of some types of abuse (such as
beating, soring the legs, exhaustion, incompetent poling) is straightforward, other practices need more
objective evidence in order to be considered as unethical. This is the case with behavioural problems.
Inappropriate schooling and riding is probably a frequent and underestimated source of decreased welfare,
but it will be difficult to convince riders because personal pride is involved. There is a need for scientific
information in this context. The very first steps in that direction have recently been dealt with during the
First International Equitation Science Symposium in Melbourne (2005). Such data are important, on the one
hand in order to evaluate some practices more objectively (i.e. is there a true welfare problem?), and on the
other hand, whenever a problem is detected, in order to convince some members of a very traditional world
to adapt certain practices.


The development of schooling techniques

A short illustrated survey will be given of the history of equestrianism and its implications for welfare.
According to available historical documents, and as far as we can interpret such texts correctly, there has
not been a clear progressive linear evolution from antiquity to modern times concerning schooling
competence and gentleness. Each period saw probably gentle and violent people (e.g. Xenophon appears
very knowledgeable in understanding horse behaviour and often insists on gentleness, giving concrete
advice, while some Greek artefacts show some violent riders). Drawings and the few writings available from
the Middle Ages and the renaissance suggest rather forceful techniques. Even if some authors (e.g. Grisone)
mention horses should be treated with kindness, their methods elicit quite a bit of scepticism. One can
however identify a gradual improvement in schooling refinement from the end of the renaissance (e.g.
Newcastle, Pluvinel) up to the baroque period. The latter and its plethora of masters represent probably the
acme of riding. A functional technique became an art in itself. Camera’s had not been invented yet, but
when scholars of these master’s writings endeavour to apply their methods, results are often superb. The
19th century represents a struggle with new challenges. While some masters kept the baroque tradition
alive, others experimented with new methods that influenced riding practices in the 20th century. A very
representative example is François Baucher (his first method will be relevant for the appraisal of R). There
are at least three reasons for those changes: an interruption of tradition due to the closing of academies by
the French revolution, the development of the fashion of racing and foxhunting and the concomitant change
in favoured breeds, the development of competition in the 20th century (Ödberg and Bouissou, 1999). If
new methods can in principle be acceptable from the point of view of welfare if applied by tactful people,
they can be deleterious in the hands of the average rider. A consequence is that the modern way of
schooling is often quite coercive as compared to the baroque philosophy and lacks lightness and selfcarriage
(see e.g. de Bragance, 1976; Henriquet and Durand, 1996; Loch, 1994; Racinet, 1999). It might
contribute to the high percentage of horses being slaughtered at a young age, such as in Germany (von
Butler and Armbruster, 1984), France (Ödberg and Bouissou, 1999), or at least before reaching the "old
age" of 20+ in Sweden (Wallin et al., 2000).

Most people agree that an increasing degree of collection should be obtained progressively through circles,
shoulder-in and gait variations. A concomitant aspect is the horse showing poll-flexion. However, this all
should happen in an as unconstrained way as possible. The horse should react to as discrete as possible
aids and this rests on elementary learning principles (McGreevy and McLean, 2005; Waran et al., 2002). To
begin with, the stimulus must be clear and well identifiable. This requires what is called in equestrian terms
"the independence of aids". When the right response is given to a clear stimulus an agreeable feeling (or
the absence of a disagreeable one) should follow or at least surely not the presence of a disagreeable one.
That means that the stimulus should not be repeated because it will induce both habituation (i.e. less
sensitivity) and the animal will think it did not give the right response and be confused, which in turn can
lead to emotional responses that interfere with learning. This is simply what is meant in the French
terminology by "descente de mains, descente de jambes" (and some will add "descente d’assiette"): once
the horse is at the requested rhythm or in the desired attitude, refrain from doing anything, don’t interfere
and let him go by himself. Besides this, the discreteness of the aid is obtained by a gradual decrease of its
strength in function of the increasing sensitivity of the horse. Unfortunately, all too often riders keep
repeating aids at the same strength when the horse is responding correctly, which induces a vicious circle
towards coercion. Furthermore, the horse should not only understand the right stimulus-response
association, it should physically be able to show the response without pain or strain (i.e. it should be supple
enough). As often people do not take time to make their horse supple, the disagreeable experience after
the stimulus renders the animal tense which induces a vicious circle towards stiffness and less elegance.
The tendency to work with a hard contact with the mouth is an illustration of what is described above.
There are even instructors who require the horse to lean hard on the hand (the "5th leg") which has the
additional disadvantage to hamper the horse from finding and working with its own equilibrium and to
increase the chances that the horse falls on its forehand instead of showing more collection. The ideal of
riding "with the weight of the reins" does not mean a loss of contact, which is demonstrated when the horse
shoots forward at the slightest request of the seat.

A hard hand contact implies more problems. It represents another inconsistency with learning principles (i.e.
that stimuli must be unequivocal and not contradictory). Stress occurs when two contradictory stimuli are
given simultaneously or when the same response is sometimes punished and sometimes rewarded (=
operant conditioning). Also when there is no clear difference any more between one conditioned stimulus
(e.g. a circle) that was originally followed by something agreeable (food) and another one (ellipse) that was
followed by something disagreeable (electric shock) (= Pavlovian conditioning). Experimental neuroses are
produced when the conditioned stimulus becomes equivocal (e.g. half-way between the circle and ellipse).
The horse learns first that a pressure in the mouth means "stop" or "slow". When later the animal is being
ridden with a hard hand it gets the signal "slow" simultaneously with the aids for "go". One consequence is
that the rider will have to compensate by giving repeatedly harder leg aids, rendering the development of
discrete aids impossible. This can also lead to experimental neuroses. Depending from their individual
predispositions (there are "active" and "passive" ways of coping with stress), some horses will show evasive
behaviours and signs of frustration (the so-called "resistances", such as headshaking, ears back, tail
swishing), go even berserk (bucking, rearing, bolting) and/or become aggressive, while some will fall in
passive learned helplessness. Needless to say the progression towards the ideal of lightness is impossible
when riding in such a way. Lightness is being defined as the unconstrained use of only those muscles
necessary for a given movement...
 
Sv: Varför publicerar Ridsport en 5 år gammal intervju?

Poll-flexion requires some specific comments in connection with the above paragraph. Ideally speaking, if
lightness is implemented for the start, it should be a concomitant phenomenon occurring naturally with
increasing suppleness and collection. However, due to various reasons (conformation, misunderstanding)
this is not always the case, and a horse should not work with a higher placed neck without showing pollflexion
as this will result in a hollow back and no collection as is too often seen in the average rider or in
jumping competitions ("star-gazers") (NB: Western riding horses can collect well without poll-flexion but
they keep the neck low). Therefore, drawing reins can eventually be used in order that the horse
understands what is required. However, such methods should be used very knowledgeably and for a limited
time during schooling progression while keeping lightness in mind. Many riders nowadays use them as a
rule and keep using them. When the drawing reins are not in use, they maintain their horse in poll-flexion
by pulling the reins. A horse schooled with a constant respect for suppleness and lightness gives on the
contrary the feeling of taking that position by itself when reacting to the seat aids because the contact
consists of the weight of the reins.

For the sake of more complete information, it should be mentioned that Cook (2000, 2002) argues that pollflexion
always induced hypoxia (without nuances concerning the way it is obtained). The presence of a bit
worsens it through increased salivation. This is in contradiction with the traditional view that salivation is a
welcome sign of relaxation. However, the snag is that this author has not presented scientific data to
support his hypothesis up to now. Experiments on this problem have started in Ghent (Behaeghel, 2003)
and are underway.


Application of these considerations to Rollkur

In human gymnastics one can develop the body more globally by playing various, preferably
complementary, sports. There was a period where Swedish gymnastics dominated. Its philosophy was that
particular groups of muscles had to be developed separately by means of specific exercises. The traditional
way of making horses supple has been through "global" exercising. During the first phase of his
investigations, Baucher, developed specific methods for exercising particular parts of the horse (e.g. the
lower jaw, the neck longitudinally, the neck sideward, combinations) with one or two reins, with various
height positions etc. According to the iconography he apparently positioned his horses quite far (e.g. the
neck is very strongly bent while positioned upward). The main flexion, however, is at the level of the
axis/atlas.

That master developed various techniques that gave good results as long as they were used by himself and
by the most tactful of his pupils (e.g. the famous "effet d’ensemble", his concept of "attaques de l’éperon").
Used by the average rider it resulted in equestrian disasters and animal suffering. The expression of one of
his pupils became a legend: " It’s extraordinary, it’s admirable! But it’s a razor blade in the hand of a
monkey!" (Baucher, 1859).

Similarly, one can imagine that Rollkur can be applied in a tactful way, like Baucher’s exercises holding the
reins between two fingers, which would demonstrate that suppleness was obtained gradually. The most
obvious difference lies in the position of the neck that is bent downwards. The question is then to what
extent is it useful? Does it really add something more to the "global" way of exercising? As a rider with
affection for the baroque philosophy, I am rather sceptical. Horses schooled with the required progression
simply do not need any particular exercise of the neck. Furthermore, wouldn’t it put more weight on the
forehand, especially with modern breeds already showing that handicap? Maybe specialists in equine
exercise physiology can contribute to solving those questions and one must remain open to new data. The
most important from the point of view of ethics, is that a priori provided Rollkur is performed within
lightness, no decreased welfare should be suspected in se. However, what is extremely disturbing when
examining the pictures takes from various members of the Dutch team is that the horses are brought into
that position by force. One notices a high tension, not only on the snaffle rein, but also on the curb (while a
curb should only have a relaxing function and never one of force). The effect of that tension on the seat of
the rider can even be observed, which suggests a matter of kilograms while one should work with grams.
One is confronted here with the more general problem of modern coercive way of riding that is in complete
contradiction with academic principles. As mentioned in the introduction, measures should be taken, not
against Rollkur as such, but in order to protect the horses from a violent way of riding and lack of lightness.
That implies a fundamental change in the mentality and training of modern dressage judges and riding
instructors. This should be extended to jumping judges who should be trained to evaluate adequately the
quality of riding and be empowered to sanction riders not only when they overtly beat their horse, but also
when they ride in a brutal way. It is always wiser to wipe one’s own doorstep before other people do so.
The FEI should avoid potential future campaigns by some animal rights organisations. Experience shows
that when it gets so far, extremists are more heard and have more influence than knowledgeable experts.


Evaluating scientifically the gentleness of schooling

Honesty compels to admit that the statement that coercive riding is deleterious to welfare rests on
extrapolations from our knowledge about learning theory and behavioural responses in stress situations and
on intuition. This hypothesis should be tested scientifically through direct observations and measurements.
How can one adapt the already widely used welfare parameters to riding? One could compare baseline
values of horses schooled according to various schooling techniques after months of procedure. However,
one is then confronted with the problem of adaptation. Could one use anticipation or a challenge? (e.g. by
comparing stress parameters between horses schooled differently, when they see the rider approaching
with the saddle). One could on the contrary focus on short time scale events (e.g. how does heart rate
change each time the spur is used repetitively as compared to one brief attack that results in the
subsequent obedience to a few grams of the calf?). Do some parameters correlate with behaviours
colloquially called "resistances"? There is a need to determine lightness more objectively. This can be
expressed through a low tension on the bit through the reins. Various authors have developed more
recently electronic devises that measure tension telemetrically (Clayton et al., 2003; de Cartier d’Yves
and Ödberg, 2005; Preuschoft at al., 1999; Warren-Smith et al., 2005). Some used them to seek correlations
with other parameters such as heart rate and behaviour during a standard dressage test with horses from
different schooling levels (de Cartier d’Yves and Ödberg, 2005) while others measured the severity of
various gears (Preuschoft et al., 1999).
 
Sv: Varför publicerar Ridsport en 5 år gammal intervju?

Dr. Eric van Breda, Maastricht

Recently, we performed a study in which we investigated the effect of a new training
technique in dressage (Rollkur). Parameters of stress were measured in recreational trained horses
(n=7) and elite (International Grand Prix level) trained dressage horses (n=5). In the training of
the elite trained dressage horses an unnatural head/neck position (Rollkur) was used whereas in
the recreational horses such training technique is not common. Stress was measured by heart rate
variability analysis 30 minutes post-feeding in the morning and thirty minutes post-exercise after a
morning training session. No significant difference could be found at rest between the recreational
and elite trained horses. Interestingly, however, during the post-training measurements the elite
dressage horses showed less stress. Our results indicate that elite trained horses tend to have less
stress than recreational trained horses post-exercise. The findings of the present study suggest
that the health and wellbeing of elite trained horses is maintained despite non-natural
biomechanical positions.
 
Sv: Varför publicerar Ridsport en 5 år gammal intervju?

Jag måste laga mat. Återkommer senare om någon vill ha mer "godbitar".

Tessan
 
Sv: Varför publicerar Ridsport en 5 år gammal intervju?

Ok, det var en förklaring på hur de tänkte när de gjorde testet. Men i det här fallet kunde det ju verkligen ha varit bättre att använda sig av cortisolanalys, med tanke på att hjärtfrekvens och kondis ju har ett visst samband. Jag förutsätter att alla hästarna fick gå ett, för dem, normalt arbetspass (så att inte de vanliga hästarnas pass anpassades efter elithästarna) detta framkommer ju dock inte. Det man fick fram här isåfall var ju att en vältränad häst inte ansträngdes mer av sitt invanda arbete än vad en vanlig häst gör av sitt normala arbete. Det är ju bra. Vad som även skulle vara intressant är att se hur en häst som inte är van att gå i en viss form reagerar på den nya formen + hur lång tid det tar för hästen att vänja sig. Det är alltid många aspekter att ta hänsyn till när man gör en studie, man måste ha klart för sig vad som bevisas och vad som inte bevisas. Man blir ju trött bara man tänker på det...
 
Sv: Varför publicerar Ridsport en 5 år gammal intervju?

Bläddrade i Ridsport idag och fick känslan att stämmer det som står i den tidningen så kommer rollkur som metod konstateras vara bra för hästar och det kommer bli en helt vanlig utbredd och använd metod. Men efter att ha läst lite att det du lagt ut här så andas jag ut lite grann.

Jag tror att denna länk kan vara lite bättre:
http://www.horsesport.org/D/d_05_04.html
 
Sv: Varför publicerar Ridsport en 5 år gammal intervju?

Ödberg, herregud vad jag måste vara oinsatt. Är det någon med ansvar för tidningen? Gjorde en sökning på nätet men hittade ingen så jag kunde inte ens låtsas att jag var insatt. :D
 
Sv: Varför publicerar Ridsport en 5 år gammal intervju?

Aha, det var ett knapplån. Förstod inte vad det hade med mitt inlägg att göra riktigt. :)

Jodå, ska läsa hela rapporten på 33 sidor, men det kommer ta några dagar.
 
Sv: Varför publicerar Ridsport en 5 år gammal intervju?

Det här är också mycket märkligt formulerat:

THE EFFECT OF DIFFERENT HEAD AND NECK POSITIONS ON THE
THORACOLUMBAR KINEMATICS IN THE UNRIDDEN HORSE

P.R. Van Weeren,
C. Johnston
L. Roepstorff,
M. A. Weishaupt
1 Department of Equine Sciences, Utrecht University, The Netherlands.
<r.vanweeren@vet.uu.nl>

Reasons for performing the study: In many equestrian activities a specific position of head
and/or neck is required that is dissimilar to the natural position. Much controversy exists on the
impact of these positions, but no quantitative data are available.
Objectives: To quantify the effect of 5 different head and neck positions on thoracolumbar
kinematics of the horse.

Methods: Kinematics of 7 high level dressage horses were measured walking and trotting on an
instrumented treadmill with the head and neck in the following positions:
HNP2=neck raised, bridge of the nose in front of the vertical;
HNP3=as HNP2 with bridge of the nose behind the vertical;
HNP4=head and neck lowered, nose behind the vertical;
HNP5=head and neck in extreme high position;
HNP6=head and neck forward downward.
HNP1 was a speed-matched control (head and neck unrestrained) for all measurements.

nead_neck_placement.gif


Results: The head and neck positions only affected vertebral angular motion patterns (AMP) in
the sagittal plane (flexion-extension). There was no influence on lateral bending or axial rotation.
The positions in which the neck was extended (HNP2, 3, 5) increased extension in the anterior
thoracic region, but increased flexion in the posterior thoracic and lumbar region. For HNP4 the
pattern was opposite. Range of motion (ROM) of vertebrae was reduced at walk in the lumbar
region in HNP2 and 5, and at trot also in HNP3. Restriction was more evident at trot than at walk
and most evident in HNP5. In this position there was an increase in ROM of lateral bending in the
thoracic region at walk and of axial rotation at trot. In HNP4 there was an overall increase in
flexion-extension ROM, at walk mainly thoracic, at trot also lumbar. HNP5 was the only position
that negatively affected intravertebral pattern symmetry and reduced hind limb protraction.

Conclusions: There is a significant influence of head/neck position on thoracolumbar kinematics,
principally in the sagittal plane. Positions with an elevated neck tend to induce extension in the
thoracic region and flexion in the lumbar region. Lower neck positions produce the opposite. High
neck positions generally lead to a restriction of ROM of vertebrae, especially in the lumbar area.
Low neck positions will increase ROM. A very high position of the neck seems to greatly disturb
normal kinematics.

Potential relevance: This study provides quantitative data on the effect of head/neck positions
on the thoracolumbar spine.



Det finns inga referenser till var man kan läsa vidare om hur de gjorde. Är hästarna ridna eller bara ihopdragna med inspänningstyglar? Varför sägs inget om HNP6? För att det gav "trevligare" resultat än HNP4? Eller för att det var omöjligt att få ryttarna att rida så eller en inspänd häst att gå så?

Tessan
 
Senast ändrad av en moderator:
Sv: Varför publicerar Ridsport en 5 år gammal intervju?

KL.

Tydligen är inte debatten över alls ännu. Senaste Ridsport tar ju upp kritiken mot FEI och FEI svarar att de fortsätter utreda.
 
Sv: Varför publicerar Ridsport en 5 år gammal intervju?

Altså jag blir så förvirrad av sånt här.
I min hjärna vill jag rita upp snygga fyrkanter där allt är lätt att förstå men men sån här text går inte det.

Som du säger de säger emot sig själva i texten.

och egentligen så komemr de inte till ngn annan slutsats än det man redan visste...

Det går att bända upp bröstrrygen men det har motsatt efefkt på länden

Det går att lyfta huvet men inte bröstryggen...


Du skall inte hänag med och ställa lite skojjiga frågor till Roepstorff nästa helg??? :D

Det vore ballt.

Sen undrar jag vad ROM är,
 
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